My article from last year, entitled “Why I Deleted My Warrior Forum Account“, touched a nerve with a lot of people. It currently has around two hundred comments, most of which came from other disgruntled Warrior Forum members who were unhappy with the way they were treated.
The most common reason given for being unhappy is because they were sold a piece of crap wrapped in tin foil. This is also referred to as a Warrior Special Offer, or if you prefer, a WSO. The Warrior Special Offers Forum has over two million posts, however the products sold there are discussed throughout other forum rooms as well.
People feel aggrieved about paying a lot of money for something that offers very little in return. Who can blame them. The products are marketed to members as a way to make money quickly. Unfortunately, the only thing the products do is show others that the only way to make money on Warrior Forum is to take part in the grand scheme and rip other people off.
A reader named Josh recently left a comment on my Warrior Forum post about a thread published by kencan98 on the BlackHatTeam forum. The person claims to have made over two million dollars by selling WSO’s on Warrior Forum. I have no reason to believe that he is making any of it up.
Those of you who have been working online will not be surprised by some of the techniques such as joining Skype groups in order to meet other marketers and using a different name and brand to sell other products.
What surprises me is that people are still buying these terrible infocrap products as if they are going to change their lives. All they have done is convince thousands of people that you can make millions of dollars online by just a few hours a week.
The thread by Kencan was published in mid 2012, however the techniques discussed in the thread are still used by marketers on Warrior Forum today. Here is the thread in full:
No BS. Let’s get right to it.
Who Am I?
My name is Kenny Cannon. I created some of the best selling WSOs in the history of the Warrior Forum. Some you are familiar with – Commission Overload, Profit Snatcher, Launchpad System, and Offline Client Infusion. Many others under fake names.Over the past 4 years I’ve done over 2 Million Dollars selling on the Warrior Forum. I’m not bragging, I’m just telling it like it is.
I’ve been in this business for 10 years and worked with some of the biggest names in the business. I’ve worked with some GREAT people like Mike Filsaime – one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met in my life. I’ve also worked with some of the biggest scumbags on the planet – Tim Atkinson comes to mind.
So that’s all you need to know about me.
What You’ll Learn Here?
This report is simple and to the point. I’m making this specifically for my friends in the BH community as well as some of the people on my list. I’m going to share with you EXACTLY how to make a killing online – starting NOW.
This report is free. Not because it’s worthless but because I truly LOVE the BH community.
I find it funny how the Clickbankers and WF members call you guys “scammers” and “thieves”. Like I said, I’ve been in this business for a long time. I’ve been FUCKED by a number of “product creators”. They actually fuck each other more than a teenage couple strung out on X. But I’ve NEVER been stabbed in the back by anyone in the BH community.
So what I’m going to teach you guys is how it’s done. How the big players in this industry do it.
I’m going to give you a clear map from nothing to around $10,000 per month. You won’t get their tomorrow. You won’t get there this month. Probably not even next month. But you WILL get there within 6 months if you follow this plan.
We’re building BUSINESSES here guys, not playing lotto. It takes time. The good news is that you’ll be making money throughout the entire process.
People Buy SHIT!
Lets face it. We’ve all seen the WSOs that are out there. 99% of them are crap. But guess what – people are buying them and they love it!
Warrior Forum members are like people in a casino. They throw up a “chip” and hope for the best. When they lose, what do they do? They throw up another chip.
When they are out of chips they walk around with their head down blaming everyone but themselves. Then the next day they are back with more chips.
Is the casino wrong for giving them a place to blow their money on useless crap? NO!
Is it the casinos fault that they keep coming back? NO!
Do the casinos all follow the same basic model? YES!
Step 1 – Download Something
Download a WSO. I don’t care if it’s about Pintrist, Facebook, Youtube, WHATEVER. It doesn’t matter. Just download a WSO.
Step 2 – Send To India
Or wherever you can find someone to rewrite a report for a few dollars. My outsource team is based in Punjab. Yours can be anywhere. Just send the downloaded WSO to an outsourcer found on Freelancer.com or Odesk.
Step 3 – Write Copy
While in India, write the sales copy for the product. Sales copy on the warrior forum is about as meaningless as wearing a condom during period week. The only thing that matters is TESTIMONIALS. Why does Amazon work so well? Reviews.
So we’ll write short copy (I usually steal it from another WSO and make it fit to my product) and that’s it.
An “Us Vs. Them” headline
-What it is
-Why they need it
-What it’s not
-How to get itThen fill the rest with testimonials.
Step 4 – Getting Testimonials
Join a skype group and act like your a genius. I’m serious. Go on the Warrior Forum and look at all the skype groups they have going on. If you’ve spent an hour on BHT, you know more than 90% of warriors. Just join a group and start answering questions.
They’ll be all over your dick like a crack whore from Alabama in seconds. No offense to my friends in Alabama by the way (if I even have friends in Alabama).
Once they think you’re the God of the internet, just tell them that you are going to use their name in a testimonial for a product launch. They’ll THANK YOU for using their name.
Step 5 – Launch and focus on 10.
Now here’s the deal. Focusing on 10 sales per bump is a joke. But I have trouble with math and the numbers work well to illustrate how I roll. Here it is.
10 sales per bump. 10 dollar report. $100 in rev. $40 in expense. $60 in profit.
10 bumps = 100 customers. $1,000 in rev. $400 in expense. $600 in profit.
I have an average of 20% of people rebuying (they buy one, they’ll buy another).
WSO 2 (I MAIL MY 100 CUSTOMERS)
10 bumps = 120 customers. $1,200 in rev. $400 in expense. $800 in profit.
WSO 3 (I MAIL MY 120 CUSTOMERS)
10 bumps = 144 customers. $1,440 in rev. $400 in expense. $1040 in profit.
And on and on.
In reality your numbers will be much higher. The point is to focus on how it grows.
You’ll want to do one WSO per week on the same day and stick to the same topic.
If you start with a Facebook WSO, continue with Facebook for as long as you can.
Once you get to 7 total WSO’s, you launch all of them together as a package for 3 times the price.
*** LEAVE THE INDIVIDUAL WSOS UP LIVE WHEN YOU LAUNCH. THIS BUILDS REAL VALUE***
Step 6 – Create Your Team
To sell a WSO you need…
-An email address
-A warrior form ID
-A paypal accountAfter you get up and running with your first WSO, it’s time to start creating your team.
How do you do this?
You get another IP (strong VPN or get a dedicated server like I use)
You get a new paypal account (DBA, Checking, Paypal)
You get a new email and Warrior ID.
Then you start again from step 1.
Eventually your goal is to have 7 total team members (all being YOU of course) launching one WSO per week.For the record, I currently have 25 total accounts and I have 3 dedicated employees who’s only job is to make sure at least one of our WSOs is on the first page at all times.
Remember…
1. Download a WSO
2. Send to India to get rewritten
3. Write copy and get testimonials
4. Launch
5. Focus on the growth over the long term
6. Create TEAM and start again at step 1.DO THIS! It works every time!
There you have it people. Straight from the horse’s mouth: People Buy SHIT!.
My advice to all of you is to stop buying shit from places such as Warrior Forum and start spending time developing a website with a proper business model. In the long term, that is what is going to make you money.
Good luck,
Kevin
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I’m not really a good person to ask as I think the majority of eBooks being released there are junk. There are some good apps being sold, but very few are being sold in a way that offers good customer service. Most products are sold on a one off basis rather than being developed as a long-term project with yearly updates and support.
In practice that means that six months or a year down the line you are unlikely to get any support for the item.
Drop by Rise Forums if you want myself or other members to take a closer look at products you are looking at.
Thanks for the reply.
When I look at products, is there trusted product developer names out there that you might recommend?
Asking this, because it would be hard to know if some product developers ‘friends’ are giving a false review…well for me.
You would have to check each product and do a lot of research on it.
Be aware that many people will give glowing reviews of their friends’ products so it is hard to get an honest opinion within the community itself.
Hi Kevin,
I know these posts are a bit old, but searching for answers.
How does one know which product on WSO is legit? As Im new at this IM thing, I want to invest in a product that works or delivery results. Ofcourse following the steps provided, but dont want buy something, spent time and money just to realise its a scam.
Im receiving tons of WSO emails with products, but how do you tell or know which is legitimate?
Johan de Wet
That is what people fail to realise. There is a whole behind the scenes thing going on between sellers to help each other make money. They will happily stick their name and a testimonial to any product or service. Integrity is not something that concerns them.
Hi, I know this thread is more than a few days old. But I have a question for you.
When Kenny Cannon sold shit on the Warrior Forum did he use a wso thread or selfhosted page and how many piles of shit did he use as upsells, if he had any upsells. I hate them because they are useless at the best.
These Skype groups where the Warriors get testimonials how fast can they get a testimonial i there
Oh, I actually didn’t notice that part. To be fair it’s 3 a.m, lol. I’ll head over there right now before bed.
Looks like you tried to visit https://www.riseforums.com instead of http://www.riseforums.com. i.e. drop the s. It should be http.
Nevermind, the other link you posted works.
Hey Kevin, It gives this error when I try to get on the forums:
http://d.pr/i/ziSF
Drop by Rise Forums Michael. I’d love to hear more about what you have done to make money online and then give you an honest (perhaps brutal) evaluation on what you done wrong. More importantly, I will explain what you can do to start making money.
I used to believe in the Law of Attraction while I was into Internet Marketing. I had a little piece of paper that said “I will make 5000 by the end of the month” and believed it. Those “The Secret” guys were sure good at BS.
I was even a member at Wealthy Affiliate and followed their advice. For some reason after months of toil – I had nothing to show for it but was several hundred dollars in debt to my father and had a negative balance in my checking account due to maintenance fees that I couldn’t pay off.
I had a change of heart about a year ago and quit IM altogether. It’s hard to say why but whenever I’d set a marketing goal, I’d always fail it. Eventually I took the hint that an outside force (God) was telling me that my own efforts were futile because I was putting more time and energy into my career instead of seeking him.
Lately, I’ve returned to IM and still can’t progress. I took a break from Bible studies and decided to make some money. Unfortunately, the same thing is happening again, even though I’ve tried different things. The thing with the Law of Attraction is that I knew that the universe wouldn’t open anything for me and that it is God who decides.
The fact that I can’t even do the most basic Black/Grey Hatter techniques without something going wrong (technical error, SEO not working, etc). Is enough for me to see where my faults lie. So then the logical question should be: Why am I still trying to achieve that which I’m not meant to?
I’m not sure that I want to pursue Internet Marketing anymore. Whenever I stop with it then everything appears to return to normal. Even if someday I did achieve my goals and was making 500 dollars a day, would it truly be worth the risk and cost?
Thanks Kenny. Glad you like the blog. Be sure to drop by Rise Forums and introduce yourself if you have time :)
No problem at all. I love the site and like I said, it’s one of the few that I read on a regular basis. Keep up the great work!
-Kenny
What do you mean something is holding you back? What is stopping you from making good money online if you know how to do it?
Hi Kenny,
Thanks again for leaving such a good comment. I am glad you you didn’t take any of my comments the wrong way. I enjoy a healthy debate and I don’t profess to know all the answers.
You are right that there are lots of people spending all their time and money buying stuff on Warrior Forum. No book or course is worth buying if you aren’t willing to put in hard work to actually do what the product teaches.
A platform for 100,000 people sounds like it requires a lot of hard work and a lot of investment. Best of luck with that. :)
Kevin
@Kevin – I couldn’t reply to your comment about “over delivering” so I’ll put it here.
I think that’s where the opportunity is. You are 100% correct. Almost everyone over promises (hype) and almost nobody over delivers (pisses people off…gives hype a bad name). That means that if you can get in there and provide great content you’ll win.
That’s all I really have been doing on the warrior forum since I started there. Yes, I hype the sales copy up like crazy. But when they get into the members area and it’s hosted in Kajabi, 15 hours of video, checklists, mind maps, templates, etc. etc. etc., plus we are in there daily commenting on questions….for $12 dollars! I win.
When you have a marketplace full of garbage like the warrior forum is, the opportunity is massive for those who want to get in there and really create great stuff.
Unfortunately, very few people over deliver. The vast majority of products and services under deliver; particularly those that are over marketed.
I have seen this myself in many niches. Take WordPress hosting, for example. So many WordPress hosting companies stress that they provide security and that they will improve the speed of your website. The two that I have tested, Synthesis and WP Engine, did nothing of the sort. Yet that is how they market their services to others.
The problem with too much hype is that it can sometimes give people false expectations.
Kevin
Yeah, maybe that is it. I’m just so frustrated sometimes because I know that I have the potential to make it big, but something is always keeping me back. I could make money online, but it’s not the type of achievement that I am proud of. A couple of hundred a week is more than enough over here in Ukraine where minimum wage is 100-130 dollars a month (especially with the economy being where it is right now).
I should be happy with what I make or could make (20-50 bucks a day). Maybe I’m just setting my standards for success too high? I know people who work their ass off everyday for a month making what I could make in several days with not much effort. I still have this habit of trying to find the easy way out when I know that the only way to do that is to compromise and work illegally.
I’ll have to think things through again and see what I’m missing. Perhaps I’m not meant for the “millionaire” lifestyle? I mean that in the spiritual sense.
Honestly, the world is “dog eat dog”. There’s no one looking over quality control when I buy something in Wal Mart and they don’t always give refunds either. In the real world, minnows get eaten up by sharks all day long. People (consumers) watch American Idol while Producers (sharks) eat them up. People (consumers) ‘like’ things on Facebook to feel better about themselves while Producers (sharks) use that information to hammer them with ads all day long.
The point I’m making is that the Warrior Forum is no different than anything else. If people don’t want scammy products on the Warrior Forum then the buyers are the ones who have to do something about it. A good example of that would be the change in Clickbank. CB because synonymous with “Internet Marketing Scam” so they shifted and they are much better off today. Not bragging but I predicted this would happen in 2011 in a video I did called “internet marketing bubble”. The same thing could happen on WF if the customers scream and yell enough.
Quality control wouldn’t do the forum any good at all. I’ve sold over 100,000 units on the Warrior Forum and I get about 90% great feedback and my refund rate over the years is around 2%. Again, not bragging, but the people there love what I put out. I was banned in 2009 for making fun of Paul Myers cowboy hat. Point is, quality control is meaningless because certain people are protected. Mark Thompson can put up his 14th plugin that will work for a week for about 10% of the people who download it and the only people who will have problems are the ones who complain.
Warrior Forum takes more steps to protect buyers than any other “internet marketing” marketplace that I know of. It’s an open forum and regardless of what people say, for the most part the comments are left up there even if they are negative. Yes, people get reviews from “friends” to make a product look good but the same thing happens on Amazon.
Buyers need to protect themselves by doing one thing – stop buying and start selling. It doesn’t have to be WSOs or even on the internet. But ebooks and video courses aren’t stock or real estate so you aren’t going to make money buying them. You make money by doing and no one on the warrior forum does anything at all besides buy more stuff.
What I am doing now? I have a few WSOs and coaching programs I’m running with a partner but that’s really the only thing I’m doing in the IM space. My big goal for the second half of 2014 is to build a platform of 100K+ people. So I’ll be launching a podcast, doing some TV and radio interviews, lots of podcast interviews, launching 2 books, attacking social media, and posting videos on Youtube at least 3 times a week. Sounds like a lot and I have no idea how I’m going to do most of it but the resources are out there when I get stuck so I’ll figure it out. Right now I’m in the “do something until I get stuck stage”. We’re coming up to the “I’m screwed…now what” stage pretty soon :)
In my opinion, hype is really the only way to sell. And I think it’s unfortunate that hype now has such a negative connotation to it.
The problem with “hype” is that I think a lot of people associate it more with what they are delivered as opposed to how they are being sold. If a product is hyped up and turns out to be garbage, there’s a problem. But when you hype a product up and it’s much better than what the customer expected, you win every time.
Everyone had heard the whole “under promise, over deliver” thing that internet people totally made up on their own. That’s garbage. Try that in the real world and you’ll be fired in a day. For example, if you worked at All State and you “under promised” how great their products and services were during a sales call, you’d be in the 20% of people unemployed or underemployed.
The theory I was taught from the first day I sold anything was to over promise (basically hype). Over promise AND over deliver. The second part is key.
If you truly believe the product or service is the best thing available, hype should come naturally. If you don’t truly believe the product or service is the best thing available then you shouldn’t be selling it.
A good example would be the 4 hour work week. Don’t know anyone who read it and is working 4 hours a week. But I know a lot of people who read it and learned about outsourcing and designing the lifestyle they want to live.
Over promise and over deliver.
Hype does indeed sell.
I started a discussion recently entitled “The No BS Marketing Approach“. It’s about the fact that selling hype does not feel comfortable to me, therefore I am taking a different approach to selling products and services online.
Are you surprised that more marketers have not tried a no bull approach to marketing products? Or is hype always the best way to go?
Kevin
Hi Kenny,
Thanks for taking the time to publish such a long detailed response. I do agree with what you are saying. There are good products out there being sold and to many people that information is priceless.
I also agree that the internet can be a bit dog eat dog. The problem is that Warrior Forum have created an environment where minnows are always attacked by sharks. There is no staff looking at quality control. There is no one looking into why many sellers refuse to give refunds. And they seem to have no issues with anyone signing up again and again getting banned.
I love marketplaces myself. I love the opportunities that exist there and I love checking out the products, websites, domains, and services, that are on sale. However, it shouldn’t be the wild west. There needs to be things put in place to stop people being ripped off.
Take Flippa, for example. I have criticised them a lot for their over the board pricing strategy that offers sellers no value. However, you need to give them credit for the rules they have put in place to reduce the chance of buyers being ripped off. Why doesn’t Warrior Forum take steps to protect members? I think that is the biggest question.
Out of interest, what are you working on just now? I’d love to know how you have applied your previous marketing ventures to your current project :)
Kevin
@Ian – I agree with you to a point. You can’t invest $10 and expect a million dollars from the system you purchased. But you CAN invest $10 and replicate the system you just went through. I buy products all the time and rarely watch/read any of it. I recently bought a course about Facebook marketing from 2 well known “gurus” and never even logged into the members area. I pay to watch how the real system works – how they are selling to me. I’ve figured that out on the Warrior Forum and I’ve also figured it out on Webinars. But I did so by buying into some products from big name people so I can go through their entire funnel and replicate the same thing for myself. One of my mentors once told me “The secret is not in the book, the secret is how the book got on the shelf” and he was right.
@Kevin – The key for me was/is selling the “dream” and delivering the “truth”. At first I thought that my refund rates would be high and it would piss people off but the exact opposite happened. I write what I know will sell and I deliver what I believe will benefit the customer the most. Obviously you can’t outright lie on a sales letter but lets face it – hype sells.
Hey Kevin. It’s an honor that you posted my information here on your site for others to benefit from (and I’m not being sarcastic…I mean it). There are a lot of things left out of what is here though so I figured I’d come and clear a few things up. Before I get started, I’m sorry for the language I used in the post above. It was 2 years ago and it was to the BH community. Not making excuses but I’ve kind of changed my ways since then.
First, people buy “shit”. I didn’t mean that as garbage. I just meant that people are conditioned to buy in certain places. People don’t go to the WSO section to chat. They go their to buy.
Second, I think people missed the main point of the post (that I did on BH). The point I was trying to make was that people do what I pointed out over and over again. They do it on WF (still), the big name gurus do it, almost everyone does it. So the point of the post really was to point that out and kind of hint that if everyone is selling crap, the real way to get ahead is to sell great stuff. Really, it’s just as easy to sell great information as it is to sell garbage. I actually think it’s easier.
A good example would be Grant Cardone. Love him or hate him, his information is priceless. I would have paid $497 for the 10X rule book and been satisfied. He’s selling greatness and he don’t have to “sell” me anything ever again – just release something new and I’m on it. On the other side of the coin is a famous “guru”/surfer guy who recently cut his hair and traded in t-shirts for button downs (no names). He’s a GREAT salesperson but his products (IMO) are horrible and are pretty much worthless.
Third, on the Warrior Forum (just like in life) there are sharks and their are minnows. Unfortunately for most, they stay in the minnow category because they never get out and do anything at all. As long as that continues, the sharks will be around to eat them up.
So to wrap it up, if you are going to sell anything, sell greatness because it’s just as easy to sell and people will continue to buy from you as long as you continue to deliver.
Thanks again for posting the information here for others to benefit from (either as a warning or somewhat of a model). Your blog is one of the few that I read regularly and I really benefit from the content you provide so that’s for that too!
I hope all is well and I wish you continued success.
-Kenny Cannon
PS – I did pull in 2 mill + from WF in just a few short years and still continue to sell on their today.
I think it depends on what your definition of “Making It” is. Some people are happy making a few hundred dollars a week to supplement their full time job. Others want to make enough to survive from internet income online. Others want to become millionaires.
Additionally, some people wrongly assume they can make money quickly and easily and are not willing to put in the work needed.
The fact is that the majority of internet marketing eBooks are selling dreams. Some tell the truth and show you practical guides on how you can make a living online. Others are selling pipe dreams.
I can’t even remember why I got banned. I found out the rather hard way that making money online is not as easy as most IMers claim it to be. I’ve tried so many different things and found that the “Black Hatters” are the ones making the dough. It’s true that their efforts don’t last long, but they could just completely abandon whatever fails and jump on the next big thing without any long-term consequences.
You know, Kevin – I just had a bit of an epiphany earlier today. I made peace with the fact that I really couldn’t care less about how much money something could make me in the long run. If I don’t get any stimulation and satisfaction from my unfulfilled job, then I am simply going to stop doing it.
Don’t get me wrong, I could make money online. The problem is that there is ALWAYS a catch, no matter how insignificant it may be. For example: Sure you could make 50 bucks in a few hours on Amazon Turk, but what they don’t tell you is that you’ll be spending much of that time searching for hits which actually ends up becoming a full-time job. On top of that, there’s that whole W9 form and US residence thing that gets in the way for the majority of non-US citizens.
You see? Nothing is ever as simple as most people seem to think. I think I see the bigger picture. When “they” say that only 1% makes it in the online world, they really mean the one percent of the one percent, not of the 100%. I recently got into the PTC aspect and again there’s that little tidbit where you still end up not really profiting as much as you’d like.
I just felt like getting this off my chest. There’s so much more to talk about….much, much more.
People always believe that you get what you paid for. I dropped the price of my 600 page book to $2.99 and people still occasionally ask for refunds. Just the nature of selling online.
The problem is that everyone is looking for a “system”. Usually, the simplest idea is the best one, but it usually requires a lot of work. For example, publishing three good articles per day should pretty much guarantee traffic and income if you stick to it over six months. However, that requires a lot of work and most people aren’t willing to put the hours in.
That’s great advice Kevin, although it encourages people to produce more crap with that six step list, I would remove that part. I must admit I have purchased several WSO’s myself, I keep a record of my purchases and I rarely request a refund unless it’s a high price I really need the money and don’t see myself using the product.
I now think that people looking for a system to make money should consider the website of the seller. A successful seller will have a great website, partly because they have the money to get it developed, and partly because others recommend it. They should have a good community and their team be reachable by email.
Secondly, consider the price, you get what you pay for. Just like you can’t invest $10 in the stock market and make $1m, you won’t either with software that costs $10.